Posts by Disillusioned JW

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Regarding Raymond and works published by Raymond's "publishing concern, Commentary Press" https://friendsofraymondfranz.com/ says the following. "Because his efforts were made for those seeking spiritual truth and freedom, we offer these works freely to anyone looking to benefit from those unique insights. Further, we encourage you to share this archive with others." https://friendsofraymondfranz.com/books-in-english/ has free PDF downloads of Commentary Press editions of the following books:

- Crisis of Conscience (Fourth edition, Revised and Updated – May, 2004) by Raymond Franz (with topical and Scriptural indexes), 420 pages

- In Search of Christian Freedom (Second edition, Revised and Updated – 2007) by Raymond Franz, 736 pages

- The Sign of the Last Days – When? [English] (First edition, 1987) by Carl Olof Jonsson & Wolfgang Herbst, [Edited by Raymond Franz], 390 pages.

The above downloads seem to be with permission by the new publisher, for in contrast in regards to The Gentile Times Reconsidered [English] (Fourth edition, Revised and Expanded – 2004) by Carl Olof Jonsson, 390 pages, it says the following. "(No longer available due to request from new publisher. Available for purchase here)".

Sadly when it came the topic of evolution Commentary Press displayed the same negative type of views as did the WT. See https://friendsofraymondfranz.com/why-popular-reasons-for-believing-evolution-are-wrong/ . Though that essay (which is a Book review of Icons of Evolution by Jonathan Wells, Ph.D.) makes a number of true factual statements which are critical of some ideas of evidence of evolution, it doesn't state any of the overwhelming evidence that strongly support evolution as being true.

https://ad1914.com/jw-experience-of-raymond-franz/ says the following.

'In an online tribute to Raymond Franz, CommentaryPress.com states:

“As Raymond learned the inner workings of the Governing Body, he became deeply concerned that the focus was more on preserving the image of the Organization rather than on sound Biblically based decisions. His disappointment lead to his sharing with Cynthia what he was troubled with concerning the Governing Body. Cynthia agreed with Raymond and together the two of them decided to leave the world headquarters in 1980.” '

https://ad1914.com/personal-experience-carl-olof-jonsson/ says the following.

'Anyone who has studied Watchtower literature knows that they are experts at misrepresenting scholars. The quoting of scholars in this case is no exception. Let me share an example. In the Watchtower publication, “Let your kingdom come,” p. 187 they try to present the picture that Babylonian history might be in error, and that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology:

“Professor Edward F. Cambell, Jr., introduced a chart, which included Neo-Babylonian chronology, with the caution: ‘It goes without saying that these lists are provisional. The more one studies the intricacies of the chronological problems in the ancient Near East, the less he is inclined to think of any presentation as final. For this reason, the term “circa” [about] could be used even more liberally than it is.'”

As Jonnson points out, the Watchtower did not mention that the chart referred to “covers the chronologies of Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, Assyria and Babylon from c. 3800 to the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C., and although the term “circa” is placed before many of the reigns given in the lists for this long period, no circas are placed before any of the reigns given for the kings of the Neo-Babylonian period!” (p. 292)

So much for doubting the accuracy of the Neo-Babylonian sources!'

35

No beards...even Jesus! Strange Watchower rule for brothers!

by Witness 007 in

watchtower 1954 p.511 "why do watchtower publications now show jesus with short hair and no beard?

because he is shown that way in older representations of him that are older then the traditional effeminate looking pictures.".

watchtower 1968 p.286 "bible evidence and a recent review shows that jesus did have a beard..." charles russell style of beard was popular at bethel...till rutherford took over.

Disillusioned JW

Adding to the Watchtower's business model approach, while Rutherford was president the congregations of the WT were referred as "companies".

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my earlier post where I say "interesting.It " that accidently became a link. It should not have been a link. Instead I intended to write "interesting. It".

Further information: From what I read about In search of Christian Freedom, that book seems to me that it would be very interesting to read.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Correction/Update: I was in error when I said "In a quick browse of the https://nulifepress.com/ web site I didn't find any books by Raymond Franz mentioned." Instead the website, which I had incorrectly thought was the right website, was https://nlpress.com/ ; that one is completely different. The https://nulifepress.com/ has trouble loading - it gets timed out when the browser tries to load the page - and I thus wonder if NuLife Press is no longer in business. Sometimes https://nulifepress.com/ redirects to https://nulifepress.net/ and that latter page says "This Website is presently Under Construction." That pages (ending in .net) claims to be owned by the other NuLife Press (the one ending in .com) since the bottom of its page says "Copyright © 2020 nulifepress.com." I suspect that NuLife Press currently is not publishing any books.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

The copies of the In search of Christian Freedom book are offered at steep prices on Amazon, apparently reflecting collectible status. The web page at https://ad1914.com/jw-experience-of-raymond-franz/ is very interesting.It has a link to CommentaryPress.com which redirects to https://nulifepress.com/ (Nulife Press). Is the latter the company that Deborah Dykstra works for (or formerly worked for)? In a quick browse of the https://nulifepress.com/ web site I didn't find any books by Raymond Franz mentioned.

The https://ad1914.com/jw-experience-of-raymond-franz/ web page says the following. 'In September 1980, the Governing Body distributed a letter to all Circuit and District overseers stating that apostates need not be promoting doctrines to be disfellowshipped. The letter stated that individuals who persisted in “believing other doctrine despite scriptural reproof” were also apostatizing and therefore warranted “appropriate judicial action”.' That reminds me of what I read in the 1980s (or maybe I didn't notice it till later) in the WT literature and that idea was disturbing to me, namely that one could be an apostate even if one is keeping one's ideas entirely solely to oneself.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

By the great crowd in the temple in heaven, I mean even in the sanctuary (NAOS) of the heavenly temple - not in the courtyard.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

The library closest to me (the one in my small city) has the Crisis of Conscience book and currently available for check out. It is the one from 2004, the 4th Edition (published by Commentary Press). Today I thus placed a hold request for it and I intend to pick it up tomorrow (the universe willing ). Yeah! In contrast none of the branches of the county library in the neighboring big city has it, nor does the huge library of the university I had graduated from decades ago. None of them have the other book by Raymond Franz. I now think the Crisis of Conscience book I read years ago must have been one I must have checked out from my local library, instead of me having bought it.

Beth Sarim, when I previously read Crisis of Conscience (but I didn't read all of it) it was after I had stopped attending WT Meetings (other than probably the Memorial and the Circuit Assemblies) - after I began having serious doubts about the WT/JW religion and during the time period I was doing independent research of the WT and the Bible, before I became an atheist. When I had read the book it was primarily to look for critiques of WT doctrines but I found little of that in book and that disappointed me. Either in that book, and/or online, I read Raymond state his reasoning backing up his idea that the great crowd mentioned in Revelation will be in heaven according to the Bible. I was very impressed; I was thinking wow, his scriptural reasoning is excellent - far better than that given in much of the WT literature! I was convinced of the correctness (according the scriptures) of his teaching that the great crowd will be heaven in the heavenly temple.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Thanks Beth Sarim for telling me about Deborah Dykstra's edition of Crisis of Conscience. I think I would prefer to buy that edition, provided I can be confident that she didn't change any of the wording of what Franz wrote. That is because I read the following about it.

Dykstra's edition includes an epilogue by her in which she mentions her experiences. She was a friend of Raymond Franz and his wife. She had also been a regular pioneer and a temporary special pioneer, but is now out of the religion and has a number of negative views about the religion. I think the epilogue mentions those things in detail.

Perhaps I will check out both editions from the library (most likely by Inter Library Loan), so I can decide which one I prefer, before I purchase an edition.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the books which have been removed, I am talking about from the library closest to my home (which is in a small city on the edge of a biggest city of the state). Though some evolution books from the 1980s and older (ones I needed use to look up quotes from the WT Creation book of the 1980s, are gone many other much newer evolution books are there, including newer editions of Darwin's Origin of the Species book.)

Entire shelves of reference books (including ones on science and technology), including a set of Britannica Encyclopedia were removed, without them being offered for sale to patrons of the library. I was told that was because people hardly use them anymore, especially since people can find up to date reference information on the internet now. It was also because the library did so to free up space to install study rooms in that area for patrons; they said patrons wanted more of such rooms. However, the small city library does subscribe to the online Britannica Encyclopedia and provides free access to it to patrons of the library. The library also got rid of all of the microfiche (and machine viewing machines for such) and most of all of their microfilm (but keeping the NY Times microfilm), saying now people hardly request such. They said it was also because the big library in the big city has such. [In contrast the large old central library branch for the big city seems to hold onto their books forever, and I've seem many atheist books there.]

The Friends of the local small city library conducts large events of book (and DVD and CD) sales (mostly of books and other items donated to them, but some are ex-libary items from the small city library), to raise funds for the small city library. The sales take place inside the library - one will take place from this Wednesday through Sunday (with Sunday being clearance pricing day).

One of the former reference desk librarians (in my small city) was a devout Christian (who is also very nice) and I got the impression she probably decided to remove some of the atheist books since I know she had authority to decide which books to order for the library and which to remove from the library. But I don't know if she removed any atheist books. I don't even know if any atheistic books have been removed, I just thought some were since I don't seem to see as many on the shelves as I did before, but perhaps those are simply checked out more frequently now. Reference desk librarians have told me they track usage of items in the library. When items are hardly checked out they remove them and order something else which they think will interest patrons more. The library has much less space than the central branch of the big city library (which even has closed stacks of shelves of books and off-site storage). There is a book case in the library (or used to be such, but maybe now it is in the Friends store) of books which the library offers for sale (as ex-library books) very cheap - but more than 95% of those are fiction.

45

Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

by Witness 007 in

so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

true pioneer!

👍 love ❤️ .

Disillusioned JW

If the books are not in any of the local libraries, I can request it via ILL (Inter Library Loan). I borrowed a lot of books that way. Yes I can buy the books on eBay; I think that the Franz book or two that I read years ago I obtained that way, and if so I later sold I it/them on eBay.

Before when I read the books I didn't dwell on what was said about what happened behind the scenes in the WT organization since I couldn't (or thought I couldn't) prove (or determine) if such claims were true. But now maybe I can determine such, simply by determining how well the explanations are of the visible actions of the WT. I am now much more suspicious of the WT and see more bad actions of the WT than I detected 15+ years ago.

In the library closest to me, a number of books promoting atheism and some books promoting evolution have been removed from the library by one (or more) reference librarians. A reference librarian told me that books are removed if they are rarely checked out. And, in the case of science books they are removed if they are old and thus considered obsolete (especially if another library branch in the county network has it), and that they are replaced with new science books. But I noticed that a much larger local library holds unto books for many decades.